1 00:00:07,610 --> 00:00:05,150 welcome to tales from the rabbit hole 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:07,620 I'm your host Nick West I guess today is 3 00:00:11,060 --> 00:00:08,730 Sascha 4 00:00:13,370 --> 00:00:11,070 I met Sasha at the Flat Earth conference 5 00:00:15,829 --> 00:00:13,380 that I talked about in my episode last 6 00:00:19,460 --> 00:00:15,839 week sasha is a really interesting 7 00:00:22,189 --> 00:00:19,470 person she believes that the earth might 8 00:00:24,050 --> 00:00:22,199 not be a sphere she's fully committed to 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:24,060 beginning being a flat earther but she 10 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:27,210 is very open to the idea and she thinks 11 00:00:31,820 --> 00:00:28,650 there's a lot of evidence that suggests 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:31,830 that the earth kind of is flat and she 13 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:33,570 comes across as a very very intelligent 14 00:00:39,290 --> 00:00:35,850 and interesting person with a good 15 00:00:41,150 --> 00:00:39,300 perspective on the world except for this 16 00:00:42,799 --> 00:00:41,160 one thing and a few other things she 17 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:42,809 believes in a bunch of other conspiracy 18 00:00:50,150 --> 00:00:46,850 theories but I found it fascinating that 19 00:00:53,510 --> 00:00:50,160 she could be so so intelligent and aware 20 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:53,520 of the way the world is and yet so wrong 21 00:00:58,790 --> 00:00:56,850 about this one thing she no doubt will 22 00:01:01,369 --> 00:00:58,800 disagree with that characterization and 23 00:01:05,350 --> 00:01:01,379 you'll understand more about that after 24 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:05,360 you listen to her in this episode she is 25 00:01:11,060 --> 00:01:07,850 [Music] 26 00:01:14,450 --> 00:01:11,070 sasha I met you at the Flat Earth 27 00:01:16,999 --> 00:01:14,460 conference which was a very interesting 28 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:17,009 conference from my perspective you know 29 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:18,900 obviously I'm not a flat earther 30 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:21,810 and it was interesting being surrounded 31 00:01:29,030 --> 00:01:23,970 by a lot of people who were either flat 32 00:01:32,149 --> 00:01:29,040 earthers or were Flat Earth curious can 33 00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:32,159 you tell me what your position is on the 34 00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:35,070 shape of the earth sure I can and it was 35 00:01:40,190 --> 00:01:37,310 nice to see there I remember that um 36 00:01:41,870 --> 00:01:40,200 yeah you were probably one I think there 37 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:41,880 were a couple other people who are not 38 00:01:47,630 --> 00:01:44,970 flat earthers but um I think it's great 39 00:01:49,609 --> 00:01:47,640 when not flat earthers come and mingle 40 00:01:52,249 --> 00:01:49,619 with flat earthers I think it's like a 41 00:01:56,300 --> 00:01:52,259 really positive thing and the more we 42 00:01:59,749 --> 00:01:56,310 mix the better really so yeah it was 43 00:02:04,039 --> 00:01:59,759 great to see you there yeah um I I do 44 00:02:07,219 --> 00:02:04,049 identify as a flat earther I um yeah I 45 00:02:10,070 --> 00:02:07,229 mean I you know I don't know how much 46 00:02:13,250 --> 00:02:10,080 that label like really communicates to 47 00:02:13,850 --> 00:02:13,260 any given person like they might think 48 00:02:15,140 --> 00:02:13,860 Oh 49 00:02:17,390 --> 00:02:15,150 you're flattered that you must believe 50 00:02:20,180 --> 00:02:17,400 in the domore you think that whatever 51 00:02:25,010 --> 00:02:20,190 there mm-hmm you may assume all sorts of 52 00:02:27,710 --> 00:02:25,020 things for me it just means I don't 53 00:02:29,870 --> 00:02:27,720 think we live on a spinning ball and I 54 00:02:35,210 --> 00:02:29,880 came to that conclusion a few years ago 55 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:35,220 in about 2015 and I'm incredibly curious 56 00:02:41,690 --> 00:02:39,330 to continue to explore evidence and to 57 00:02:44,660 --> 00:02:41,700 just continue to feel what it like to 58 00:02:47,350 --> 00:02:44,670 think this and talk to people and live 59 00:02:53,420 --> 00:02:47,360 life right now it's it's kind of a 60 00:02:57,650 --> 00:02:53,430 interesting adventure and yeah so that's 61 00:02:59,840 --> 00:02:57,660 yeah that's good that's so you said like 62 00:03:02,180 --> 00:02:59,850 2015 was when you kind of first got into 63 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:02,190 it can you remember kind of what was the 64 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:06,570 tipping point there it was a long time 65 00:03:15,190 --> 00:03:10,770 it was I did you know ding ding ding I 66 00:03:21,020 --> 00:03:17,979 well we all we all watch YouTube videos 67 00:03:23,930 --> 00:03:21,030 there I did there was a short video that 68 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:23,940 I had been popping up I was kind of 69 00:03:29,630 --> 00:03:26,850 dismissing it and then I thought well 70 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:29,640 I'm just bored enough mm-hmm and the 71 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:31,890 thumbnail is pretty like this waterfall 72 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:35,370 kind of idea and so I just clicked on it 73 00:03:40,789 --> 00:03:38,010 and I thought maybe be like satire just 74 00:03:46,370 --> 00:03:40,799 a little bit of entertainment and it was 75 00:03:50,300 --> 00:03:46,380 a very dry Illustrated explanation of 76 00:03:54,050 --> 00:03:50,310 our I guess sort of questions to ask 77 00:03:58,789 --> 00:03:54,060 about how we perceive the Sun mmm and 78 00:04:01,220 --> 00:03:58,799 perspective and I watched it and I just 79 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:01,230 had this kind of like little internal 80 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:03,930 like guffaw like this kind of laughs or 81 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:06,510 I did realize they were making a good 82 00:04:13,850 --> 00:04:10,730 point and it just it was so so out of my 83 00:04:16,430 --> 00:04:13,860 greater range of anything that I would 84 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:16,440 ever imagine somebody could make a good 85 00:04:22,610 --> 00:04:18,650 point about that I was just kind of I 86 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:22,620 was tickled and I you know I came out 87 00:04:27,950 --> 00:04:26,310 actually first I I you know I I googled 88 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:27,960 the globe I Google 89 00:04:32,990 --> 00:04:30,050 I was like well okay let me just review 90 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:33,000 and believe the glare of my hallway 91 00:04:37,939 --> 00:04:35,610 I remember that let me just go back and 92 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:37,949 look at it again I googled the globe I 93 00:04:42,379 --> 00:04:40,289 googled the history of our belief in the 94 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:42,389 globe actually remember finding this big 95 00:04:47,330 --> 00:04:45,030 PDF with sort of like a illustrated 96 00:04:49,189 --> 00:04:47,340 history of when they discovered the 97 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:49,199 globe and how why they believes in it 98 00:04:54,439 --> 00:04:53,490 and moments of different um I guess 99 00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:54,449 confirmations 100 00:04:58,460 --> 00:04:56,220 it's been a little while while now I 101 00:05:01,550 --> 00:04:58,470 don't remember but I remember just going 102 00:05:03,499 --> 00:05:01,560 back and revisiting just sort of just 103 00:05:07,790 --> 00:05:03,509 sort of realizing like looking at with 104 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:07,800 it with a critical eye that we never 105 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:11,970 really really confirmed it like like and 106 00:05:16,909 --> 00:05:15,210 it was like okay you know I it's the 107 00:05:19,550 --> 00:05:16,919 weirdest thing ever at the time I didn't 108 00:05:21,580 --> 00:05:19,560 know anybody who would ever ask this 109 00:05:24,379 --> 00:05:21,590 question whatsoever 110 00:05:25,879 --> 00:05:24,389 but I was like you know it was it was a 111 00:05:28,189 --> 00:05:25,889 real threshold kind of mode because I 112 00:05:32,779 --> 00:05:28,199 was like well this is just it's weird 113 00:05:34,969 --> 00:05:32,789 like am I gonna let my mind ask this 114 00:05:37,100 --> 00:05:34,979 question you know is the globe right am 115 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:37,110 I gonna I'm gonna think this thought 116 00:05:43,310 --> 00:05:40,530 because there's kind of like a a barrier 117 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:43,320 in me this instinct of like I don't I 118 00:05:48,350 --> 00:05:45,180 don't think that thought like that's not 119 00:05:50,570 --> 00:05:48,360 a thought you think and I also at the 120 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:50,580 sort of subsequently had this kind of 121 00:05:56,540 --> 00:05:54,510 feeling like well I can cross a line i I 122 00:05:59,060 --> 00:05:56,550 can think a thought that I first have 123 00:06:01,370 --> 00:05:59,070 this instinct feeling no we don't I 124 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:01,380 thought and it's only a question it's 125 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:04,560 not a conclusion it's a question and so 126 00:06:09,020 --> 00:06:06,090 I just kind of like metaphorically 127 00:06:12,050 --> 00:06:09,030 stepped into the question and I was like 128 00:06:16,370 --> 00:06:12,060 is it really globe are we really on a 129 00:06:19,010 --> 00:06:16,380 globe and it it was I was like I'm not 130 00:06:20,749 --> 00:06:19,020 so I did a lot of things to explore the 131 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:20,759 question I did watch other YouTube 132 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:25,250 videos I came across sort of like 133 00:06:32,659 --> 00:06:27,690 hurdles I guess would be like okay so if 134 00:06:35,060 --> 00:06:32,669 it's if it's a globe then or if it's 135 00:06:38,170 --> 00:06:35,070 flat then and so one of the early things 136 00:06:41,810 --> 00:06:38,180 that I came across was satellites and 137 00:06:42,660 --> 00:06:41,820 you know I saw people representing cases 138 00:06:44,610 --> 00:06:42,670 that 139 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:44,620 we're not really using satellites and 140 00:06:49,130 --> 00:06:46,510 satellites are just kind of good a story 141 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:49,140 we're being told and I was like well I 142 00:06:55,530 --> 00:06:53,110 didn't really I don't really know of 143 00:06:57,740 --> 00:06:55,540 course but I was like well how can I 144 00:07:01,440 --> 00:06:57,750 test that for myself like how can I 145 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:01,450 personally verify if we have satellites 146 00:07:05,970 --> 00:07:03,850 and I am I took a field trip to the 147 00:07:09,090 --> 00:07:05,980 observatory I live in Los Angeles and so 148 00:07:12,030 --> 00:07:09,100 I I went to the observatory and I like 149 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:12,040 plucky Nancy Drew song take a friend 150 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:14,290 with me and I was like you know they 151 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:16,450 have this huge telescope and so I was 152 00:07:20,150 --> 00:07:17,290 like you know 153 00:07:23,550 --> 00:07:20,160 can I see satellite see your telescope 154 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:23,560 and they they said no and I said okay 155 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:25,810 well you know can you see them is it 156 00:07:28,860 --> 00:07:26,860 possible like maybe I don't have 157 00:07:31,290 --> 00:07:28,870 permission but is it possible to see 158 00:07:33,570 --> 00:07:31,300 satellites through that telescope and 159 00:07:35,130 --> 00:07:33,580 they said no and I said well is it true 160 00:07:37,260 --> 00:07:35,140 that the satellites can really see us 161 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:37,270 and I said yes they can read your 162 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:42,430 license plate exaggerating a little 163 00:07:50,070 --> 00:07:45,700 though okay so maybe where they smoked 164 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:50,080 this yeah yes tell me we did that did 165 00:07:54,780 --> 00:07:52,210 they say why is the Teleco this go 166 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:54,790 couldn't see the satellites yeah I asked 167 00:07:58,290 --> 00:07:56,530 a lot of questions and they said the 168 00:08:01,950 --> 00:07:58,300 reason was because they were moving too 169 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:01,960 fast the thing is there I you know I I 170 00:08:06,030 --> 00:08:03,490 understand the basic concept of 171 00:08:08,820 --> 00:08:06,040 relativity so if they are moving too 172 00:08:11,250 --> 00:08:08,830 fast then in relation to them we should 173 00:08:14,310 --> 00:08:11,260 be moving too fast so with the most 174 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:14,320 powerful you know I explored further is 175 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:16,090 it just this telescope or can we see 176 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:17,530 them with any camera all these kind of 177 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:20,290 questions and they said we can't see 178 00:08:23,250 --> 00:08:21,730 them from Earth even though there's 179 00:08:27,270 --> 00:08:23,260 these other stories that you can see 180 00:08:30,780 --> 00:08:27,280 those glints in light you know they said 181 00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:30,790 we can't focus on them and and they said 182 00:08:35,550 --> 00:08:33,280 we can't see them so it was the the 183 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:35,560 first time I was getting first time was 184 00:08:42,540 --> 00:08:38,590 going to a source and asking a questions 185 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:42,550 and getting essentially like a an answer 186 00:08:47,910 --> 00:08:45,610 that didn't make any sense and felt kind 187 00:08:49,290 --> 00:08:47,920 of defensive you know at some point they 188 00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:49,300 really were just like satellites are 189 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:51,310 real like they really just gonna get and 190 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:53,710 of course that wasn't the end of my 191 00:08:58,910 --> 00:08:56,050 journey that was only the very beginning 192 00:09:02,820 --> 00:08:58,920 but it was just a little bone of like oh 193 00:09:08,070 --> 00:09:02,830 I'm further curious I'm further curious 194 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:08,080 like these answers should be better yeah 195 00:09:10,980 --> 00:09:09,730 they should and I kind of agree and they 196 00:09:11,550 --> 00:09:10,990 weren't really giving a very good answer 197 00:09:14,970 --> 00:09:11,560 sir 198 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:14,980 it's from my experience you-you-you I 199 00:09:18,540 --> 00:09:16,090 don't know if you'd be able to see a 200 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:18,550 satellite with the big telescope at the 201 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:21,250 observatory but there's two types of 202 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:23,170 satellites this the ones that orbits and 203 00:09:30,050 --> 00:09:26,890 then the geostationary ones so the 204 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:30,060 geostationary ones don't move in the sky 205 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:32,530 so really you should be able to focus 206 00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:35,770 the telescope one of those sorry that 207 00:09:42,690 --> 00:09:39,550 they don't they don't go anyway so I 208 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:42,700 spent about nine months doing things 209 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:45,130 like that and coming to different 210 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:48,100 questions and exploring foreign against 211 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:51,010 and just just reaiize I like to do my 212 00:09:54,470 --> 00:09:51,430 homework 213 00:09:58,680 --> 00:09:54,480 it's like it's just kind of my thing and 214 00:10:01,190 --> 00:09:58,690 I just dove in and I was I was just went 215 00:10:04,350 --> 00:10:01,200 aggressively to any pros and cons and 216 00:10:07,170 --> 00:10:04,360 you know I didn't have like oh I wanted 217 00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:07,180 to be fine I wanted to be a globe or it 218 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:09,400 you know it was I just wanted to 219 00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:11,170 it was just intriguing like what 220 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:15,670 actually dealing with and so they were 221 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:17,980 there were sort of pivotal moments where 222 00:10:25,860 --> 00:10:21,270 I sort of realized certain things that 223 00:10:28,620 --> 00:10:25,870 you know pushed me more towards pushed 224 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:28,630 me more towards not globe to say ever 225 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:30,640 went like to any kind of flat model 226 00:10:34,470 --> 00:10:33,250 wouldn't be to it it really was just 227 00:10:37,980 --> 00:10:34,480 that I understood there was a 228 00:10:41,340 --> 00:10:37,990 possibility of other models but I would 229 00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:41,350 never say oh you know that equidistant a 230 00:10:46,170 --> 00:10:44,320 map that must be right no no no all I 231 00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:46,180 realized was that they're very 232 00:10:54,180 --> 00:10:50,200 legitimate questions to ask and I have 233 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:54,190 been putting putting my faith in a body 234 00:11:00,690 --> 00:10:56,290 of information that I can't personally 235 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:00,700 personally verify and I can see major 236 00:11:06,810 --> 00:11:04,510 contradictions and what would you say is 237 00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:06,820 like say where someone was coming new to 238 00:11:10,329 --> 00:11:08,089 this subject and they were 239 00:11:13,269 --> 00:11:10,339 curious about the flat earth what would 240 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:13,279 you personally give them as the most 241 00:11:17,889 --> 00:11:15,889 compelling piece of evidence that you 242 00:11:20,769 --> 00:11:17,899 can personally verify and that they 243 00:11:25,540 --> 00:11:20,779 could also verify well first of all I'd 244 00:11:27,429 --> 00:11:25,550 say hey it's a jungle in here and you 245 00:11:29,049 --> 00:11:27,439 better take your time you better take 246 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:29,059 your sweet time and if you're not 247 00:11:35,739 --> 00:11:32,689 convinced to something awesome like this 248 00:11:38,980 --> 00:11:35,749 is about realizing that you can discern 249 00:11:41,079 --> 00:11:38,990 information for yourself and don't let 250 00:11:43,230 --> 00:11:41,089 anybody tell you anything that you don't 251 00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:43,240 check on your own and that you don't 252 00:11:47,019 --> 00:11:45,680 just take your time to consider don't 253 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:47,029 don't accept anything under pressure 254 00:11:51,549 --> 00:11:48,769 don't accept anything because of how it 255 00:11:55,299 --> 00:11:51,559 feels like just take your sweet time but 256 00:11:59,139 --> 00:11:55,309 some of the reasons that are strong for 257 00:12:03,730 --> 00:11:59,149 me is actually not even about um the 258 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:03,740 shape of it but about the spin and so I 259 00:12:10,030 --> 00:12:07,850 I found this chart it is you know where 260 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:10,040 how fast you spinning here in the earth 261 00:12:14,049 --> 00:12:11,689 like it occurred to me I was looking at 262 00:12:18,249 --> 00:12:14,059 a globe and I was like you know what we 263 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:18,259 have to be spinning a lot faster at the 264 00:12:23,799 --> 00:12:21,410 equator than at the poles mm-hmm because 265 00:12:26,319 --> 00:12:23,809 you know you got you got to cover a lot 266 00:12:29,499 --> 00:12:26,329 more distance in one day you're at about 267 00:12:32,519 --> 00:12:29,509 a thousand miles per hour at the surface 268 00:12:36,309 --> 00:12:32,529 of the equator and then you're at about 269 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:36,319 close to zero at the poles and I was 270 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:38,689 like well that's that's wacky that's K 271 00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,490 and so then I went to this chart and I 272 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:42,399 just sort of like explored different 273 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:45,050 plane trips you can take and so I 274 00:12:51,369 --> 00:12:46,910 discovered that like if you went from 275 00:12:55,059 --> 00:12:51,379 like India to the UK that the ground 276 00:12:57,699 --> 00:12:55,069 beneath your feet had to slow down by 277 00:12:59,919 --> 00:12:57,709 400 miles per hour now I recognize okay 278 00:13:02,169 --> 00:12:59,929 like we're including the atmosphere okay 279 00:13:05,410 --> 00:13:02,179 sure so that the whole system could be 280 00:13:09,009 --> 00:13:05,420 slowing down at 400 miles per hour but 281 00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:09,019 that's a lot of change in force that's a 282 00:13:14,590 --> 00:13:12,110 lot of adjustment and I know that you're 283 00:13:16,929 --> 00:13:14,600 gonna feel your organs like slamming up 284 00:13:19,119 --> 00:13:16,939 against your ribcage like now I 285 00:13:21,770 --> 00:13:19,129 understand constant force in one 286 00:13:24,350 --> 00:13:21,780 direction you don't feel 287 00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:24,360 but any kind of change in force you do 288 00:13:29,660 --> 00:13:27,440 feel so hugging a curve or slowing down 289 00:13:33,470 --> 00:13:29,670 these are going to give you physical 290 00:13:35,270 --> 00:13:33,480 sensations and I was like wow you know 291 00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,280 I've never specifically taken a plane 292 00:13:40,220 --> 00:13:37,920 from India to the UK but I have taken a 293 00:13:43,340 --> 00:13:40,230 lot of plane rides and I went into the 294 00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:43,350 math for how much the the world the 295 00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:44,670 environment of the earth everything 296 00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:46,380 should be slowing down or speaking up 297 00:13:51,950 --> 00:13:49,200 during that trip and I was just like 298 00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:51,960 well I didn't feel that at all the plane 299 00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:55,980 didn't adjust for it you know I I do I 300 00:14:02,060 --> 00:13:58,650 ride on the freeway I get off on an exit 301 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:02,070 Lane I hug a curve I feel that I gotta 302 00:14:06,410 --> 00:14:04,170 eat know one direction I guess you know 303 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:06,420 I can't take the fast I'm gonna fly off 304 00:14:11,540 --> 00:14:08,970 the editor feeling like these curves 305 00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:11,550 these motion well have people try to 306 00:14:19,130 --> 00:14:15,030 explain that to you I can tell you about 307 00:14:21,130 --> 00:14:19,140 the difference between turning and going 308 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:21,140 in a straight line basically because 309 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:23,610 there's linear velocity and there's 310 00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:27,930 angular velocity and well probably the 311 00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:29,880 example that you've probably heard 312 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:32,160 before is the example of being on a 313 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:35,730 train and if the trains going 100 miles 314 00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:38,580 an hour you walk in one direction down 315 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:39,900 the train from where and to the other 316 00:14:44,329 --> 00:14:41,970 and then you turn around and walk back 317 00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:44,339 the other way it doesn't actually feel 318 00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:46,800 any different well that's fine I don't 319 00:14:49,579 --> 00:14:48,240 have a problem with that but the thing 320 00:14:51,650 --> 00:14:49,589 is that a trains going in a straight 321 00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:51,660 line you're essentially you're going in 322 00:15:00,460 --> 00:14:52,710 a straight line that when you're flying 323 00:15:03,050 --> 00:15:00,470 from England to India so you know yeah a 324 00:15:04,460 --> 00:15:03,060 curve I mean unless you want to say that 325 00:15:06,860 --> 00:15:04,470 this flat then you can go in a straight 326 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:06,870 line from England and you win that one 327 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:08,970 but we got to go with the flat model all 328 00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:11,490 right have you ever actually calculated 329 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:13,200 the forces that are actually involved 330 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:15,330 that would be throwing you like to the 331 00:15:20,570 --> 00:15:18,690 side or whatever no I I haven't in 332 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:20,580 detail now I just know that an 333 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:23,010 adjustment of 400 miles per hour is a 334 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:25,650 lot because when I adjust by 20 miles 335 00:15:30,860 --> 00:15:28,290 per hour I feel it so and I've looked up 336 00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:30,870 like how much how much force should 337 00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:33,240 about how much speed velocity to the 338 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:35,120 human body be able to handle 339 00:15:39,610 --> 00:15:37,850 and it's less than 400 miles per there's 340 00:15:41,199 --> 00:15:39,620 like a graphic of like a person on a 341 00:15:43,540 --> 00:15:41,209 roller coaster with their face off 342 00:15:45,489 --> 00:15:43,550 smushed back and it's like you the human 343 00:15:48,369 --> 00:15:45,499 body can only handle so much velocity 344 00:15:52,179 --> 00:15:48,379 and so it's like well we're out of our 345 00:15:53,769 --> 00:15:52,189 limits you know when you say 400 miles 346 00:15:59,619 --> 00:15:53,779 an hour is that the difference in speed 347 00:16:04,329 --> 00:15:59,629 between England and India yeah so that's 348 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:04,339 that's a nine-hour flight so you have to 349 00:16:09,939 --> 00:16:07,850 make and take your time but you you have 350 00:16:13,119 --> 00:16:09,949 to experience that adjustment right but 351 00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:13,129 if you were going faster and faster if 352 00:16:16,889 --> 00:16:14,660 you start up at zero miles an hour and 353 00:16:20,049 --> 00:16:16,899 you accelerate up to 400 miles an hour 354 00:16:22,929 --> 00:16:20,059 that's about the same as as a plane 355 00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:22,939 basically taking off and you do that 356 00:16:30,879 --> 00:16:26,120 every time you fly and it takes about 357 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:30,889 maybe five minutes well let me just say 358 00:16:36,819 --> 00:16:34,490 this it should be detectable with all of 359 00:16:38,829 --> 00:16:36,829 our instruments with all of the machine 360 00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:38,839 the counter force necessary when flying 361 00:16:43,869 --> 00:16:41,540 that it should be detectable another 362 00:16:46,929 --> 00:16:43,879 thing I experienced as I went also to 363 00:16:49,019 --> 00:16:46,939 the observatory and there is the the 364 00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:49,029 Foucault's Pendulum 365 00:16:54,489 --> 00:16:52,399 one of my little stops on my journey of 366 00:16:56,499 --> 00:16:54,499 research and so I just I went there and 367 00:16:57,759 --> 00:16:56,509 I was like okay so what what is this 368 00:17:00,400 --> 00:16:57,769 demonstrating what is this not 369 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:00,410 demonstrating you know why well first of 370 00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:03,170 all as a question why can something you 371 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:06,079 know swing independently you know we're 372 00:17:09,870 --> 00:17:07,370 supposed to be able jump and land at the 373 00:17:11,649 --> 00:17:09,880 same place why is this pendulum 374 00:17:15,699 --> 00:17:11,659 experiencing why is this pendulum 375 00:17:17,529 --> 00:17:15,709 special but anyway that's not even it's 376 00:17:22,449 --> 00:17:17,539 like okay it could be special but I 377 00:17:24,490 --> 00:17:22,459 asked the person who's presenting the 378 00:17:26,199 --> 00:17:24,500 pendulum you know how does this work you 379 00:17:28,389 --> 00:17:26,209 know and they told me there's a big 380 00:17:30,639 --> 00:17:28,399 magnet at the top there's a big circular 381 00:17:32,889 --> 00:17:30,649 magnet and you have to swing the 382 00:17:34,659 --> 00:17:32,899 pendulum and the big circular magnet 383 00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:34,669 keeps it going and without that magnet 384 00:17:38,289 --> 00:17:36,289 it won't swing yeah 385 00:17:40,810 --> 00:17:38,299 the magnet keeps you going but it 386 00:17:42,940 --> 00:17:40,820 doesn't actually turn it goes wait is a 387 00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:42,950 circular magnet so it's the same in you 388 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:45,200 know the directions I'm gonna make a lot 389 00:17:49,010 --> 00:17:47,610 of sense like how magnets 390 00:17:51,799 --> 00:17:49,020 and then I'm looking over they have a 391 00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:51,809 globe sitting on the desk and a little 392 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:55,230 metal ball and a string dangling from 393 00:17:59,090 --> 00:17:57,210 the globe sort of demonstrating what 394 00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:59,100 this book calls pendulum is supposed to 395 00:18:04,430 --> 00:18:01,200 be and that little metal balls doing is 396 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:04,440 just exactly saying stationary not 397 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:08,610 showing it at all so you need the magnet 398 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:11,130 it's a it's a I mean well you also need 399 00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:14,850 a 200 foot long cable you saw how big 400 00:18:18,830 --> 00:18:16,350 that is a probably not 200 the actual 401 00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:18,840 one in Paris is 200 feet long but the 402 00:18:23,419 --> 00:18:20,400 way it's Griffiths Park you were out 403 00:18:25,610 --> 00:18:23,429 wasn't that absolutely true that it just 404 00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:25,620 you know it these are there is probably 405 00:18:30,350 --> 00:18:27,929 like hundreds hundreds of things I 406 00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:30,360 investigated but it's just like examples 407 00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:32,640 of things that you know this should be a 408 00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:35,460 lot this should work without the magnet 409 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:38,340 this should be real this should be what 410 00:18:42,890 --> 00:18:40,410 it's supposed to be instead of it does 411 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:42,900 actually work with the magnet what 412 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:44,610 happens if you take the magnet away is 413 00:18:50,030 --> 00:18:47,010 it is it gradually slows down because of 414 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:50,040 air friction you know again E&E pendulum 415 00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:52,770 will eventually slow down so the magnets 416 00:18:57,289 --> 00:18:55,200 just that you know allow it to keep 417 00:18:58,940 --> 00:18:57,299 going longer I think the original one 418 00:19:01,789 --> 00:18:58,950 they had when they first did it they 419 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:01,799 have to kind of tap it occasionally with 420 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:03,770 a hammer or something to keep it going 421 00:19:08,419 --> 00:19:06,090 well I don't think I'd tap the earth to 422 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:08,429 keep it spinning you don't but the earth 423 00:19:13,549 --> 00:19:11,250 is a lot a lot bigger then course 424 00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:13,559 pendulum I mean like I said I know I'm 425 00:19:20,539 --> 00:19:17,280 not looking to like to be like really 426 00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:20,549 strong deep waters with these thoughts 427 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:22,799 and feelings but um I think it's very 428 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:24,210 interesting they're just hearing your 429 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:26,850 take on very specific things because 430 00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:30,450 these are generally things the eye I 431 00:19:34,610 --> 00:19:32,220 find it hard sometimes to understand 432 00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:34,620 what people are thinking like when 433 00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:36,360 they're describing these things like 434 00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:38,160 when you mentioned the 400 mile per hour 435 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:41,750 thing yeah yeah big difference between 436 00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:44,760 the earth speed the earth surface speed 437 00:19:50,210 --> 00:19:48,840 at in England and India it took me a 438 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:50,220 while for you to act up for me to 439 00:19:52,340 --> 00:19:51,330 actually understand what you were and 440 00:19:55,130 --> 00:19:52,350 what you were talking about that 441 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:55,140 actually Google how fast am i spinning 442 00:20:00,560 --> 00:19:57,690 right I could get the exact chart but 443 00:20:01,370 --> 00:20:00,570 there's a chart I mean you can do the 444 00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:01,380 math yourself 445 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:02,400 but you were saying like you would be as 446 00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:03,570 a feeling like your organs being 447 00:20:07,790 --> 00:20:05,670 squished and but the acceleration to go 448 00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:07,800 from 0 to 400 miles an hour over 9 hours 449 00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:12,480 is really incredibly small I mean I 450 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:14,310 don't we'd have to do the math to figure 451 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:17,370 out exactly what it is but it it's the 452 00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:19,650 force you know it's it's something I 453 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:23,640 mean these are some big big velocity 454 00:20:28,670 --> 00:20:26,370 changes right you probably will exist 455 00:20:30,130 --> 00:20:28,680 and when you when you're flying you know 456 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:30,140 obvious when you take off you're gonna 457 00:20:37,580 --> 00:20:35,850 feel when I take off them I feel the 458 00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:37,590 velocity of just the takeoff you know I 459 00:20:42,290 --> 00:20:39,600 lean back I feel the pressure kind of 460 00:20:45,070 --> 00:20:42,300 pushing me back in my seat I feel it and 461 00:20:47,930 --> 00:20:45,080 that's not that much you know it's like 462 00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:47,940 comparatively I should be feeling also 463 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:52,080 the whole system yeah bounce the miles 464 00:20:54,530 --> 00:20:52,650 per hour 465 00:20:56,090 --> 00:20:54,540 well it's like five minutes versus nine 466 00:20:58,750 --> 00:20:56,100 hours and then I think you'll probably 467 00:21:01,520 --> 00:20:58,760 have to square that to get the actual 468 00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:01,530 difference but yeah you can go ahead and 469 00:21:10,460 --> 00:21:08,340 take it to the max so there's a lot a 470 00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:10,470 lot a lot of stuff like that but there 471 00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:14,640 was also the incredible sort of social 472 00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:19,140 and media backlash that came and it 473 00:21:26,750 --> 00:21:21,360 started to occur to me that we have a 474 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:26,760 kind of conditioned society too and you 475 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:28,770 know I saw a lot of that in your book I 476 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:32,010 got to tell you to to see this as 477 00:21:38,150 --> 00:21:35,370 something to be cured to see asking 478 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:38,160 these questions as a malady that needs 479 00:21:44,660 --> 00:21:40,050 to be corrected I certainly wouldn't say 480 00:21:46,730 --> 00:21:44,670 asking questions is a malady hey I feel 481 00:21:49,610 --> 00:21:46,740 like people getting the answers wrong is 482 00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:49,620 a problem yeah that's kind of what I 483 00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:51,750 feel that's happening with a lot of 484 00:21:55,310 --> 00:21:53,310 these things I talked about in the book 485 00:21:56,750 --> 00:21:55,320 so I I actually really encourage people 486 00:21:58,970 --> 00:21:56,760 to be curious and actually think that 487 00:22:01,640 --> 00:21:58,980 the Flat Earth movement is good in some 488 00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:01,650 ways because it does encourage people to 489 00:22:06,410 --> 00:22:03,990 question things and also it encourages 490 00:22:10,490 --> 00:22:06,420 people to do experiments doing things 491 00:22:12,740 --> 00:22:10,500 like Lea long distance observations and 492 00:22:15,020 --> 00:22:12,750 things like that to see how much is 493 00:22:15,620 --> 00:22:15,030 obscured and things like that yeah you 494 00:22:18,110 --> 00:22:15,630 know I 495 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:18,120 I am just to pull it back that was like 496 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:19,710 the first thing we talked about wasn't 497 00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:23,250 it so you and Nathan were having a 498 00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:25,230 debate and I actually asked a question 499 00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:27,600 near the end of it and I asked you guys 500 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:30,030 to talk about your what it was like in 501 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:32,730 your personal personal experience of the 502 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:35,490 moment that for you that you realized 503 00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:37,050 you were committed to believing in the 504 00:22:41,150 --> 00:22:39,000 globe and for Nathan the moment he 505 00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:41,160 realized he's committed to disbelieving 506 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:42,780 in the globe and Nathan answered first 507 00:22:47,630 --> 00:22:45,930 and he gave a story and and then I was 508 00:22:48,860 --> 00:22:47,640 I've got to tell you I was really just 509 00:22:52,910 --> 00:22:48,870 asking because I wanted to hear your 510 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:52,920 answer because in my mind most people 511 00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:55,170 sort of commit to believing in the globe 512 00:23:00,980 --> 00:22:58,290 when they're children and they don't go 513 00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,990 through any kind of vetting process but 514 00:23:06,650 --> 00:23:02,880 they also don't really realize that and 515 00:23:08,540 --> 00:23:06,660 so I really just wanted to ask to see 516 00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:08,550 what would happen if you you know asked 517 00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:10,260 yourself that but you gave a really 518 00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:12,390 interesting answer you said that you 519 00:23:17,060 --> 00:23:14,880 hadn't been committed to believing in 520 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:17,070 the globe until you discovered the flat 521 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:19,530 earth movement and you went through a 522 00:23:24,620 --> 00:23:22,890 journey of researching and actually at 523 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:24,630 the latter end of that research 524 00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:26,490 committed to believing in the globin and 525 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:28,350 I just thought that was that was really 526 00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:31,050 cool he said that so yeah I started out 527 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:32,940 I think just like everybody else and 528 00:23:37,940 --> 00:23:34,830 that you assumed that the world is a 529 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:37,950 globe because that's just the generally 530 00:23:42,530 --> 00:23:39,600 accepted thing and that's what science 531 00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:42,540 tells us and I don't think that's a 532 00:23:49,460 --> 00:23:46,110 terrible position because it's anyway an 533 00:23:53,420 --> 00:23:49,470 extremely well-founded belief in my 534 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:53,430 opinion yeah and I I'm actually fine 535 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:55,530 with most people not spending a lot of 536 00:23:59,660 --> 00:23:57,690 time looking into it but if they want to 537 00:24:02,570 --> 00:23:59,670 that's fine too but yeah like I said I 538 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:02,580 started out trying to debunk the Flat 539 00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:06,570 Earth and I basically went through all 540 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:09,840 of the claims that people made including 541 00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:11,490 some of the ones that you've kind of 542 00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:15,120 touched on here and I think I proved at 543 00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:17,820 least to myself that these claims were 544 00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:20,580 wrong and Sarah's just you gain more and 545 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:23,760 more evidence for one position or the 546 00:24:27,890 --> 00:24:24,410 other 547 00:24:29,290 --> 00:24:27,900 okay so yeah I think that's great and I 548 00:24:33,910 --> 00:24:29,300 think it's fine and if 549 00:24:35,950 --> 00:24:33,920 I don't have the same conclusion but I 550 00:24:39,130 --> 00:24:35,960 don't think that we need to have the 551 00:24:42,610 --> 00:24:39,140 same conclusion I think that it makes 552 00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:42,620 for a more interesting existence if we 553 00:24:48,610 --> 00:24:44,150 if we do come to different conclusions 554 00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:48,620 and we can continually hopefully gently 555 00:24:54,570 --> 00:24:51,440 kindly you know ask each other questions 556 00:24:57,070 --> 00:24:54,580 about it because there are so many 557 00:24:59,380 --> 00:24:57,080 things to question in this world in my 558 00:25:02,520 --> 00:24:59,390 opinion I know that maybe you don't ask 559 00:25:05,650 --> 00:25:02,530 you necessarily think that but I don't 560 00:25:07,150 --> 00:25:05,660 think it would be healthy if we all just 561 00:25:10,810 --> 00:25:07,160 thought it was flat and we're done with 562 00:25:12,490 --> 00:25:10,820 it like it's more interesting when 563 00:25:14,740 --> 00:25:12,500 people want to when people at a time 564 00:25:17,980 --> 00:25:14,750 when it's positive for them rather than 565 00:25:21,090 --> 00:25:17,990 negative to feel free to explore for 566 00:25:25,030 --> 00:25:21,100 themselves it's great like having people 567 00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:25,040 questioning things I'm not sure you know 568 00:25:30,610 --> 00:25:27,860 if having divergent opinions on the 569 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:30,620 shape of the earth though is a good 570 00:25:38,140 --> 00:25:35,090 thing because from my perspective well I 571 00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:38,150 have such a what I feel it's such a 572 00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:40,880 strong and compelling case for the globe 573 00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:43,910 essentially yeah that's if people are 574 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:46,640 thinking is wrong as such a fundamental 575 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:49,130 problem in that if you think that's 576 00:25:52,810 --> 00:25:51,050 wrong there's so many consequences that 577 00:25:55,540 --> 00:25:52,820 come from that if the earth is in fact 578 00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:55,550 flat that means there's essentially this 579 00:26:02,470 --> 00:25:58,640 vast centuries-old conspiracy to trick 580 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:02,480 us and that and I'm not saying that's a 581 00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:04,610 reason not to believe it but it's a 582 00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:06,860 reason for me personally to fight that 583 00:26:12,580 --> 00:26:09,110 belief because if people are believing 584 00:26:16,270 --> 00:26:12,590 in this ancient conspiracy to trick 585 00:26:19,180 --> 00:26:16,280 everybody and they're wrong then their 586 00:26:21,850 --> 00:26:19,190 their way of viewing the world is going 587 00:26:23,230 --> 00:26:21,860 to be very very based on not reality 588 00:26:26,290 --> 00:26:23,240 essentially and they'll be making 589 00:26:29,740 --> 00:26:26,300 decisions both in their lives and in 590 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:29,750 society as a whole that aren't based on 591 00:26:33,970 --> 00:26:31,970 a real view of the world in the world's 592 00:26:35,770 --> 00:26:33,980 history and the world's power structures 593 00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:35,780 and that goes down to a very simple 594 00:26:42,490 --> 00:26:40,400 thing which is voting if people are you 595 00:26:43,060 --> 00:26:42,500 know electing politicians based on a 596 00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:43,070 belief 597 00:26:47,169 --> 00:26:44,630 the world is flat and everything is a 598 00:26:50,110 --> 00:26:47,179 lie that's a very different proposition 599 00:26:52,990 --> 00:26:50,120 from people electing politicians based 600 00:26:54,909 --> 00:26:53,000 on the belief that just simply you know 601 00:26:57,460 --> 00:26:54,919 the world is as the scientists say it 602 00:26:59,649 --> 00:26:57,470 and scientists and politicians are just 603 00:27:03,220 --> 00:26:59,659 people who are corrupted by lobbyists 604 00:27:05,169 --> 00:27:03,230 money so it's yeah we I feel like we 605 00:27:09,070 --> 00:27:05,179 won't be addressing the real problems of 606 00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:09,080 things like corruption if we think that 607 00:27:14,139 --> 00:27:12,710 it's such a huge corruption that they 608 00:27:16,389 --> 00:27:14,149 are lying to us about the shape of the 609 00:27:17,740 --> 00:27:16,399 world I mean I think this is like a 610 00:27:21,249 --> 00:27:17,750 really interesting thing to talk about 611 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:21,259 because I saw you talk about that some 612 00:27:27,009 --> 00:27:25,250 in your book and and sort of 613 00:27:28,450 --> 00:27:27,019 extrapolated from things while you're 614 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:28,460 that you're saying now and that you said 615 00:27:33,369 --> 00:27:31,970 when we met that you basically are 616 00:27:35,230 --> 00:27:33,379 saying you're afraid I'm not going to 617 00:27:36,610 --> 00:27:35,240 vote the way that you want me to vote or 618 00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:36,620 that other flat-earthers are not going 619 00:27:41,139 --> 00:27:38,120 to vote in the way that you think is the 620 00:27:42,610 --> 00:27:41,149 right way to vote and no I think I think 621 00:27:45,369 --> 00:27:42,620 if it's it's not that it's that I think 622 00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:45,379 that you won't base your decisions upon 623 00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:48,200 the the way the world actually is you 624 00:27:52,899 --> 00:27:51,440 base them on a phantasm and so yeah you 625 00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:52,909 could vote whatever you like I mean 626 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:54,529 maybe you're a libertarian maybe you're 627 00:27:59,289 --> 00:27:56,090 you're a socialist 628 00:28:01,659 --> 00:27:59,299 maybe you're whatever you are like free 629 00:28:04,019 --> 00:28:01,669 market or maybe you're believe in your 630 00:28:06,899 --> 00:28:04,029 market controls these are all valid I'll 631 00:28:10,350 --> 00:28:06,909 ideological differences that we all have 632 00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:10,360 but believing that there's a ancient 633 00:28:14,259 --> 00:28:13,039 order of people who have been keeping us 634 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:14,269 from the truth about the shape of the 635 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:16,370 earth isn't really a political or 636 00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:18,110 ideological thing it's just something 637 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:20,480 that is just flat wrong let's just like 638 00:28:25,570 --> 00:28:22,370 pull back just a little bit because I 639 00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:25,580 haven't said that I believe that I have 640 00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:27,470 said that I don't think our globe model 641 00:28:31,990 --> 00:28:30,080 is right I don't I don't know what it's 642 00:28:36,009 --> 00:28:32,000 about I really don't know what it's 643 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:36,019 about I do not know that there is what 644 00:28:40,899 --> 00:28:37,730 you're describing some sort of ancient 645 00:28:43,450 --> 00:28:40,909 cabal of her I don't know that I don't 646 00:28:45,940 --> 00:28:43,460 see that story out there but I don't 647 00:28:48,369 --> 00:28:45,950 know how to test for and against that 648 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:48,379 well I mean you don't think that people 649 00:28:56,499 --> 00:28:52,510 just made a mistake this whole time I 650 00:28:59,589 --> 00:28:56,509 don't know I just 651 00:29:02,739 --> 00:28:59,599 don't know what we're dealing with I I 652 00:29:04,569 --> 00:29:02,749 just I really don't know I think that we 653 00:29:06,159 --> 00:29:04,579 are like for example like I don't 654 00:29:08,259 --> 00:29:06,169 personally think that you're some kind 655 00:29:11,109 --> 00:29:08,269 of like agent of control I think that 656 00:29:13,089 --> 00:29:11,119 you are sincere in your intentions I 657 00:29:15,609 --> 00:29:13,099 think that you have opinions that I 658 00:29:20,529 --> 00:29:15,619 disagree with but somebody on the 659 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:20,539 podcast just said he is other people 660 00:29:24,639 --> 00:29:23,809 have oh I definitely am NOT speaking for 661 00:29:26,919 --> 00:29:24,649 all flat-earthers 662 00:29:30,369 --> 00:29:26,929 I'm probably not speaking for any other 663 00:29:34,269 --> 00:29:30,379 planters and myself weird incredibly 664 00:29:36,669 --> 00:29:34,279 diverse group of people and there any 665 00:29:38,889 --> 00:29:36,679 any question you got different opinions 666 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:38,899 down the road and also we changed our 667 00:29:42,219 --> 00:29:41,809 mind as we go so I could even change my 668 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:42,229 mind 669 00:29:47,109 --> 00:29:45,289 but but anyway I I do think that your 670 00:29:48,219 --> 00:29:47,119 sincere thank you I think you are 671 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:48,229 sincere that's one of the things that 672 00:29:55,019 --> 00:29:49,809 actually got from the conference is that 673 00:29:57,399 --> 00:29:55,029 everybody seemed sincere pretty much and 674 00:29:58,899 --> 00:29:57,409 yeah I kind of was a little bit I 675 00:30:01,049 --> 00:29:58,909 wouldn't say surprised but I didn't know 676 00:30:03,579 --> 00:30:01,059 what to expect before I went there and 677 00:30:04,659 --> 00:30:03,589 yeah my wife was saying are you sure 678 00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:04,669 you're gonna be okay are you gonna be 679 00:30:07,719 --> 00:30:05,809 safe what if someone tries to 680 00:30:08,919 --> 00:30:07,729 assassinate you because you're you're 681 00:30:13,419 --> 00:30:08,929 like I think you're an agent of the 682 00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:13,429 Illuminati and yeah it's I didn't know 683 00:30:18,729 --> 00:30:15,440 what to expect and but everybody was 684 00:30:20,739 --> 00:30:18,739 remarkably nice and friendly and you 685 00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:20,749 know we had a good chat and I had a good 686 00:30:27,909 --> 00:30:24,799 chat with other people so I think yeah I 687 00:30:29,199 --> 00:30:27,919 saw that you all are genuine and and I 688 00:30:31,809 --> 00:30:29,209 think a lot of the people there saw that 689 00:30:35,499 --> 00:30:31,819 I was genuine and that's a good basis 690 00:30:37,869 --> 00:30:35,509 for having a good discussion awesome so 691 00:30:40,299 --> 00:30:37,879 I actually I do want to 692 00:30:42,069 --> 00:30:40,309 it's like circle back to this voting 693 00:30:43,569 --> 00:30:42,079 thing okay because I do think it's 694 00:30:45,159 --> 00:30:43,579 important to try to talk about like well 695 00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:45,169 what are the real what are the real 696 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:47,569 practical fears like what are the real 697 00:30:55,180 --> 00:30:51,529 reasons that you think it's potentially 698 00:30:57,789 --> 00:30:55,190 a bad thing that for example I don't 699 00:31:00,189 --> 00:30:57,799 believe in the globe and so you know I 700 00:31:02,949 --> 00:31:00,199 know that you were saying like oh I 701 00:31:06,309 --> 00:31:02,959 could my worldview could potentially be 702 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:06,319 war by some wrong belief system and that 703 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:10,129 that could change well thank you Ivo or 704 00:31:15,850 --> 00:31:11,210 something 705 00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:15,860 so it it might that's possible I tell 706 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:18,620 you the most common voting thing that 707 00:31:24,340 --> 00:31:20,570 happens or flat earthers as people sort 708 00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:24,350 of vote less because which is a problem 709 00:31:29,020 --> 00:31:26,960 I think well I want more people to vote 710 00:31:35,020 --> 00:31:29,030 okay but we're gonna vote for the 711 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:35,030 conspiracy model no I'm just kidding so 712 00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:39,410 there's just different layers of what 713 00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:43,100 this means and you know I know that you 714 00:31:47,950 --> 00:31:45,200 mentioned the people like they might 715 00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:47,960 stop caring about global warming or they 716 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:50,180 might you know which is I just want to 717 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:52,010 tell you like I don't think you need to 718 00:31:54,670 --> 00:31:52,730 worry about that 719 00:31:58,510 --> 00:31:54,680 like sure there are people who do 720 00:32:00,400 --> 00:31:58,520 question is global warming like kind of 721 00:32:03,370 --> 00:32:00,410 a propaganda story but I don't know 722 00:32:06,220 --> 00:32:03,380 anybody who's like well then let's let's 723 00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:06,230 mess with our environment like the 724 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:08,990 fundamental desire to take care of our 725 00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:12,170 environment remains and is probably ever 726 00:32:17,770 --> 00:32:14,720 stronger because we realize more and 727 00:32:20,110 --> 00:32:17,780 more that it is up to us that this world 728 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:20,120 is up to us that there there are 729 00:32:25,780 --> 00:32:22,850 manipulative propaganda messages coming 730 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:25,790 at us and it is our job to take 731 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:27,890 ownership of our own communities of our 732 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:30,410 own lives and our own greater world and 733 00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:33,170 do the best we can with it and not be 734 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:35,710 manipulated so you're gonna get people 735 00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:39,410 who are learning to farm and and you 736 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:41,660 know you're not gonna get people who are 737 00:32:45,370 --> 00:32:43,490 like let's pollute and let's support 738 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:45,380 operations who wanted it pollute like 739 00:32:52,210 --> 00:32:49,610 it's I mean it's it's a fallacy I would 740 00:32:54,430 --> 00:32:52,220 love to you know tip you towards letting 741 00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:54,440 go of that conspiracy theory that flat 742 00:32:59,710 --> 00:32:57,320 earthers are are out to you know damage 743 00:33:02,740 --> 00:32:59,720 the environment and not care about 744 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:02,750 people and vote in some kind of like 745 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:05,090 paranoid destructive way because there's 746 00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:10,490 really no solid connection or motivation 747 00:33:17,950 --> 00:33:14,870 to make those decisions for a person who 748 00:33:20,050 --> 00:33:17,960 has less belief in a mainstream 749 00:33:21,550 --> 00:33:20,060 narrative it's just there's no there's 750 00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:21,560 no logical connection there 751 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:23,310 well that you 752 00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:25,770 kind of have a distrust of scientists 753 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:28,080 well I wouldn't say that you know 754 00:33:32,570 --> 00:33:30,570 recently I actually befriended the 755 00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:32,580 spokesperson for Caltech his name is 756 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:35,310 spyridon michael oculus I met him at a 757 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:37,530 screening for the documentary behind the 758 00:33:43,550 --> 00:33:40,530 curve that I hosted a meetup at in Los 759 00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:43,560 Angeles Film Festival and a bunch of 760 00:33:46,250 --> 00:33:44,910 flat-earthers went there you know let's 761 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:46,260 go represent let's go see what they have 762 00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:47,730 to say about us and there was a 763 00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:49,080 scientist in the dock yet I don't know 764 00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:51,840 if you saw the documentary but so the 765 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:53,460 scientist kind of you know it was very 766 00:33:58,870 --> 00:33:55,410 like kind of good-looking charming guy 767 00:34:01,310 --> 00:33:58,880 and a nice shirt like said basically 768 00:34:03,470 --> 00:34:01,320 flat earthers are like kind of like 769 00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:03,480 obsessed with a refusal to look at the 770 00:34:09,169 --> 00:34:06,480 evidence kind of thing and I could feel 771 00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,179 watching him that he didn't know any 772 00:34:15,890 --> 00:34:11,520 flat earthers but he had so I actually 773 00:34:17,419 --> 00:34:15,900 saw him from the lobby and I put on my 774 00:34:17,990 --> 00:34:17,429 plucky hat and I went over and said 775 00:34:20,390 --> 00:34:18,000 hello 776 00:34:21,740 --> 00:34:20,400 you know I introduced myself and I said 777 00:34:23,540 --> 00:34:21,750 you know that I had been doing some 778 00:34:25,220 --> 00:34:23,550 organizing a flat earthers and that we 779 00:34:26,690 --> 00:34:25,230 would love to have a conversation with 780 00:34:29,899 --> 00:34:26,700 him that we want to have a dialogue with 781 00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:29,909 scientists also and to my delight he 782 00:34:37,310 --> 00:34:32,760 actually accepted my invitation quite 783 00:34:40,399 --> 00:34:37,320 graciously and we had several like sit 784 00:34:42,020 --> 00:34:40,409 down several hours each come Podcast 785 00:34:43,399 --> 00:34:42,030 conversations where we brought him into 786 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:43,409 a room and we had a few people in the 787 00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:45,690 room and recorded and had a full podcast 788 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:48,720 and oh my god like people all over 789 00:34:53,930 --> 00:34:52,530 people in the chat and talking and he at 790 00:34:56,650 --> 00:34:53,940 first had the same thought that your 791 00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:56,660 wife had that we were gonna like kidnap 792 00:35:01,730 --> 00:34:59,280 and wheaties to him you know that like 793 00:35:03,590 --> 00:35:01,740 you know thanks for thanks for phone for 794 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:03,600 it you know you are in danger 795 00:35:08,990 --> 00:35:07,170 but it went really well and so basically 796 00:35:10,610 --> 00:35:09,000 like we just greeted him and thanked him 797 00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:10,620 and you know I had him in to do some 798 00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:11,820 selfies quite prominent he's a 799 00:35:16,370 --> 00:35:14,550 consultant for Marvel for the movies he 800 00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:16,380 gives them they're like quantum physics 801 00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:19,470 ideas for the Marvel movies and he's a 802 00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:21,630 quantum physicist and he almost won a 803 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:23,640 Nobel Prize and he's he does a lot of 804 00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:25,890 speaking and all this kind of stuff you 805 00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:28,020 know he was he was wary of us but he 806 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:30,000 definitely was gracious when he showed 807 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:33,690 up and we had a nice conversation and 808 00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:36,450 you know I I told him the first thing 809 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:37,260 that I asked 810 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:39,450 and really was you know I told them I'd 811 00:35:43,790 --> 00:35:41,130 seen it make statements the documentary 812 00:35:45,830 --> 00:35:43,800 and I seen him he had contribute to an 813 00:35:48,470 --> 00:35:45,840 article basically reiterating some of 814 00:35:51,710 --> 00:35:48,480 the same ideas about us you know he's 815 00:35:53,210 --> 00:35:51,720 being very polite but he is disparaging 816 00:35:57,140 --> 00:35:53,220 trust in these statements that he's made 817 00:35:59,870 --> 00:35:57,150 and so I asked him what kind of research 818 00:36:01,490 --> 00:35:59,880 he had done prior to making the 819 00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:01,500 statements what kind of research on 820 00:36:05,330 --> 00:36:03,750 flat-earthers had he done and when I 821 00:36:07,940 --> 00:36:05,340 asked him that I mean he almost like 822 00:36:11,210 --> 00:36:07,950 blushed like he turned away I'd had this 823 00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:11,220 like pause of like he can and he turned 824 00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:13,260 back and he kind of started rambling but 825 00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:15,060 he did not answer the question and I 826 00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,160 didn't press it because just the gesture 827 00:36:21,620 --> 00:36:19,440 of him showing up with so much and I 828 00:36:24,410 --> 00:36:21,630 didn't need him to you know explain 829 00:36:26,660 --> 00:36:24,420 himself but we we bridged a place where 830 00:36:28,490 --> 00:36:26,670 he after many hours of conversation 831 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:28,500 where you know actually some of the 832 00:36:31,370 --> 00:36:29,850 techniques that you talk about on this 833 00:36:34,670 --> 00:36:31,380 book like I definitely used you know I 834 00:36:37,610 --> 00:36:34,680 invited him to explain many things to us 835 00:36:40,490 --> 00:36:37,620 and was very patient before we you know 836 00:36:45,020 --> 00:36:40,500 took the turn to explain things to him 837 00:36:46,580 --> 00:36:45,030 but we we went through stages and it you 838 00:36:48,650 --> 00:36:46,590 know and he was fine like you guys are 839 00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:48,660 super scientists he said he said this to 840 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:50,760 us he was just like I didn't and he 841 00:36:54,590 --> 00:36:52,170 wrote me his email with this like 842 00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:54,600 incredibly gracious email this apology 843 00:36:58,220 --> 00:36:56,160 like I don't want people to judge people 844 00:37:00,580 --> 00:36:58,230 like you I've been making statements 845 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:00,590 that aren't fair like you you are 846 00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:02,850 sincere you are doing research you're 847 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:04,680 asking questions you're doing what 848 00:37:08,270 --> 00:37:06,690 scientists should do he doesn't come to 849 00:37:10,130 --> 00:37:08,280 the place where he thinks he has said 850 00:37:11,690 --> 00:37:10,140 that what he thinks are right but he has 851 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:11,700 come to the place where he's 852 00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:13,050 demonstrated incredible 853 00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:15,150 respect and a desire to collaborate with 854 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:16,800 us because we were now planning an 855 00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:18,930 experiment together and he recently 856 00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:22,140 bought three of us lunch a Caltech and 857 00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:25,440 invited his best friend and lab mate to 858 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:28,500 sit down with us and he's going to bring 859 00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:30,810 in other scientists and it was he's 860 00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:34,680 really just an open forum conversation 861 00:37:40,220 --> 00:37:37,710 and the very lively conversation is a 862 00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:40,230 fun you know we're just like sharing 863 00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:41,790 ideas an exploring way to do a 864 00:37:49,340 --> 00:37:45,440 collaborative experiment and this is 865 00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:49,350 because I love scientists my one of my 866 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:50,640 best friend's husband is 867 00:37:55,580 --> 00:37:53,730 a tenured science professor at USC by my 868 00:37:57,860 --> 00:37:55,590 mother was a lab technician I grew up as 869 00:37:59,600 --> 00:37:57,870 a child like sitting in a lab learning 870 00:38:03,380 --> 00:37:59,610 how to use pipettes and plotting data 871 00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:03,390 like I I won the science word when I 872 00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,520 graduated from middle school as a child 873 00:38:10,010 --> 00:38:07,680 like my whole school like I've always 874 00:38:14,780 --> 00:38:10,020 loved science and I love the scientific 875 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:14,790 method and I I wanted to engage 876 00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:17,250 scientists in this conversation and I 877 00:38:22,070 --> 00:38:19,920 have great respect for them I just I 878 00:38:24,140 --> 00:38:22,080 think there's an obstacle because they I 879 00:38:26,090 --> 00:38:24,150 wouldn't say they on the whole because I 880 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:26,100 don't even know but we're getting the 881 00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:27,930 feeling that there's a prejudice between 882 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:29,940 us but I think we're starting to bridge 883 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:31,410 that I mean I know it's just in little 884 00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:34,530 steps but I personally think we can 885 00:38:38,270 --> 00:38:35,880 bridge it a lot and that we can 886 00:38:41,090 --> 00:38:38,280 collaborate in these questions so do you 887 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:41,100 think all these scientists all these 888 00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:44,490 mainstream scientists they all think the 889 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:47,250 earth is a ball because they have been 890 00:38:52,070 --> 00:38:50,010 indoctrinated well you know I actually 891 00:38:54,650 --> 00:38:52,080 talked to Speers his lab mate who was 892 00:38:57,530 --> 00:38:54,660 whose name was Jose just when we all sat 893 00:38:59,150 --> 00:38:57,540 down he studies how the eye sees but so 894 00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:59,160 that was kind of one of the first things 895 00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:00,480 I asked him when I just met him a few 896 00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:02,640 weeks ago I was like well so you you've 897 00:39:06,110 --> 00:39:04,560 heard of this latter thing like what he 898 00:39:08,450 --> 00:39:06,120 how do you feel about it you for against 899 00:39:10,190 --> 00:39:08,460 it you can know and he just started 900 00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:10,200 talking to me and he said well you know 901 00:39:15,260 --> 00:39:12,510 I learned I learned it was a globe when 902 00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:15,270 I was a child and I never I don't think 903 00:39:18,770 --> 00:39:16,860 he used the word vetted but some simile 904 00:39:21,020 --> 00:39:18,780 some thoughts like that you know I never 905 00:39:23,180 --> 00:39:21,030 like looked at I never examined it I've 906 00:39:26,090 --> 00:39:23,190 just been doing all this science that 907 00:39:29,090 --> 00:39:26,100 builds on top of it and allows it to be 908 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:29,100 a given and he's like and he was just 909 00:39:33,290 --> 00:39:30,930 kinda like so yeah that's where I'm at 910 00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:33,300 and and which I thought was just 911 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:35,220 incredible I was you know that he came 912 00:39:39,890 --> 00:39:37,290 to me with that I didn't say that to him 913 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:39,900 I mean an auction ated you know it has a 914 00:39:45,230 --> 00:39:42,690 very heavy word you could say it a lot 915 00:39:46,370 --> 00:39:45,240 of different ways but he said also like 916 00:39:49,570 --> 00:39:46,380 there were no scientist out there 917 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:49,580 studying is the ball are we living up 918 00:39:54,290 --> 00:39:52,770 like they that's that's done they we 919 00:39:56,060 --> 00:39:54,300 cover that in grade school people are 920 00:40:00,020 --> 00:39:56,070 out there studying on the ice you know 921 00:40:01,790 --> 00:40:00,030 so so realistically there are not all 922 00:40:04,010 --> 00:40:01,800 these scientists are double-checking the 923 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:04,020 boss people are believing it in the name 924 00:40:09,950 --> 00:40:07,410 of science but not there are a lot of a 925 00:40:11,630 --> 00:40:09,960 lot of scientific experiments you can do 926 00:40:14,030 --> 00:40:11,640 to verify it 927 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:14,040 I know youth you think you're doing 928 00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:16,170 scientific experiments to disprove it 929 00:40:22,250 --> 00:40:18,990 but you know there are you know a 930 00:40:24,740 --> 00:40:22,260 variety of experiments that for example 931 00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:24,750 just looking at stars and seeing that 932 00:40:29,930 --> 00:40:27,420 the stars move in a certain way I think 933 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:29,940 most scientists would if they actually 934 00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:31,530 look at the Stars and the way they move 935 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:33,660 in as if they are on the inside of a 936 00:40:39,230 --> 00:40:37,530 very very large celestial sphere they 937 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:39,240 will say that here the only way this can 938 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:42,330 be true is if you know the world itself 939 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:44,130 is very cool or looking at things like 940 00:40:49,580 --> 00:40:47,610 the moon and the Sun near the moon not 941 00:40:52,370 --> 00:40:49,590 changing size the Sun not changing size 942 00:40:54,350 --> 00:40:52,380 and things going behind the horizon 943 00:40:55,790 --> 00:40:54,360 there's a bunch of very fundamental 944 00:40:58,280 --> 00:40:55,800 things which I brought up in my debate 945 00:41:00,290 --> 00:40:58,290 with with Nathan and he didn't really 946 00:41:03,310 --> 00:41:00,300 answer them and there's a whole bunch of 947 00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:03,320 other small things as well you're at a 948 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:05,640 really interesting what would what I 949 00:41:11,420 --> 00:41:07,370 would consider like a really advanced 950 00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:11,430 area of Flat Earth questions which I 951 00:41:16,010 --> 00:41:12,480 usually tell you like all these 952 00:41:17,630 --> 00:41:16,020 questions are so welcome like I I know 953 00:41:20,060 --> 00:41:17,640 you've you spent some time in your book 954 00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:20,070 kind of like debunking the dome and you 955 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:22,200 know debunk it all you want like I think 956 00:41:27,290 --> 00:41:26,010 that it's like that you know surely 957 00:41:30,890 --> 00:41:27,300 other people would disagree with me but 958 00:41:33,980 --> 00:41:30,900 it's very very open for debate how we're 959 00:41:36,410 --> 00:41:33,990 getting what we're observing and so just 960 00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:36,420 going it's not a spinning ball doesn't 961 00:41:39,380 --> 00:41:37,920 mean we know what's going on in the sky 962 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:39,390 what do you think's going on in the 963 00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:42,090 South Pole oh I don't know you're gonna 964 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:43,920 enter me in a place complete definitely 965 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:48,770 not my I do want to see that you're a 966 00:41:54,380 --> 00:41:51,810 Stellarium here I'm looking up and so 967 00:41:56,270 --> 00:41:54,390 you talked about a stellarium you were 968 00:42:00,680 --> 00:41:56,280 you were discussing like so you can look 969 00:42:02,930 --> 00:42:00,690 at the sky and look at the stars and and 970 00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:02,940 you don't even need to really travel 971 00:42:08,180 --> 00:42:06,480 yeah there's a projection system that 972 00:42:10,490 --> 00:42:08,190 you can use that will show you exactly 973 00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:10,500 the way the Stars and the sky and 974 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:12,240 celestial bodies look at all times 975 00:42:16,490 --> 00:42:14,610 anywhere in the world and that this is a 976 00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:16,500 perfect way to test and demonstrate we 977 00:42:19,220 --> 00:42:17,609 live on a globe 978 00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:19,230 I'm just looking I've never used this 979 00:42:22,819 --> 00:42:20,940 instrument I don't know and I have not 980 00:42:25,549 --> 00:42:22,829 studied this star this is not an area 981 00:42:29,690 --> 00:42:25,559 that I've been like deeply and bopping 982 00:42:32,749 --> 00:42:29,700 but just my first thought is if you can 983 00:42:35,420 --> 00:42:32,759 recreate our sky perfectly without fail 984 00:42:39,950 --> 00:42:35,430 with the projection system what's to say 985 00:42:41,509 --> 00:42:39,960 it's not really a projection system it's 986 00:42:43,549 --> 00:42:41,519 a pretty impressive projection system if 987 00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:43,559 it is you can zoom in a very very very 988 00:42:49,999 --> 00:42:48,569 long way I think yeah I think universe 989 00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:50,009 there's an argument is that there's a 990 00:42:55,549 --> 00:42:52,710 philosophical point of view I think it's 991 00:42:57,370 --> 00:42:55,559 called solipsism which states that all 992 00:43:00,769 --> 00:42:57,380 you could know is what you personally 993 00:43:02,329 --> 00:43:00,779 observe and there's no way of knowing if 994 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:02,339 anybody else is observing the same 995 00:43:07,430 --> 00:43:05,130 things as you or if anybody else has any 996 00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:07,440 yeah any kind of perception or or 997 00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:09,599 consciousness even or you can see is 998 00:43:15,249 --> 00:43:11,150 what you are seeing and it's a very 999 00:43:18,410 --> 00:43:15,259 self-centered philosophical system and 1000 00:43:20,329 --> 00:43:18,420 you know one step brahmbhatt is just 1001 00:43:21,829 --> 00:43:20,339 saying that everything in the world is 1002 00:43:23,569 --> 00:43:21,839 faked for your benefit like you're 1003 00:43:25,069 --> 00:43:23,579 living in some kind of matrix like a 1004 00:43:28,190 --> 00:43:25,079 literal matrix from the movie matrix 1005 00:43:29,930 --> 00:43:28,200 where I saw the computer simulation so 1006 00:43:32,210 --> 00:43:29,940 you asked like how do we know we're not 1007 00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:32,220 living in a computer simulation how do 1008 00:43:37,069 --> 00:43:34,440 we know this is not projected I mean I'm 1009 00:43:39,170 --> 00:43:37,079 not saying computers I'm just saying the 1010 00:43:41,989 --> 00:43:39,180 sky I'm just saying that I kept nothing 1011 00:43:43,489 --> 00:43:41,999 you and I are affected with a grounder 1012 00:43:46,039 --> 00:43:43,499 walkie on I'm just saying literally 1013 00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:46,049 stars really the what we see when we 1014 00:43:52,579 --> 00:43:48,480 look at that would mean that the sky and 1015 00:43:53,479 --> 00:43:52,589 the stars are a perfect projection only 1016 00:43:56,269 --> 00:43:53,489 from your point of view 1017 00:43:57,650 --> 00:43:56,279 because if you if it was a projection he 1018 00:43:58,940 --> 00:43:57,660 would it would only work from one 1019 00:44:01,099 --> 00:43:58,950 position on the earth because if he 1020 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:01,109 moved four thousand miles further away 1021 00:44:04,609 --> 00:44:02,130 you've been looking at it from a 1022 00:44:06,739 --> 00:44:04,619 different angle I mean I I guess I don't 1023 00:44:09,109 --> 00:44:06,749 know the answer but people do wonder 1024 00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:09,119 about that I am I'm I've seen 1025 00:44:14,269 --> 00:44:11,910 interesting discussions about that 1026 00:44:18,109 --> 00:44:14,279 possibility and it possibly being a way 1027 00:44:21,380 --> 00:44:18,119 to consider why you know they look the 1028 00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:21,390 same size at all like are we just are we 1029 00:44:25,579 --> 00:44:24,089 seeing a projection that is based on our 1030 00:44:28,299 --> 00:44:25,589 position but other people get that 1031 00:44:30,670 --> 00:44:28,309 projection based on out their position 1032 00:44:32,890 --> 00:44:30,680 hi guys hey I'm not 1033 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:32,900 I don't have a dog in this fight yeah I 1034 00:44:36,460 --> 00:44:34,850 think Occam's razor kind of comes into 1035 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:36,470 play there you're you're creating 1036 00:44:41,650 --> 00:44:38,930 something now which is this incredibly 1037 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:41,660 complex and something's completely 1038 00:44:46,810 --> 00:44:45,290 beyond the known laws of physics just to 1039 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:46,820 explain away something that could be 1040 00:44:55,330 --> 00:44:51,610 explained far simpler with the actual I 1041 00:44:57,970 --> 00:44:55,340 think that a projection is far simpler I 1042 00:45:01,540 --> 00:44:57,980 mean how is the projection work when we 1043 00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:01,550 want to create a model of the sky we use 1044 00:45:06,190 --> 00:45:03,680 the projection we don't recreate a model 1045 00:45:09,310 --> 00:45:06,200 of sky we don't like manifest gravity 1046 00:45:11,170 --> 00:45:09,320 and and celestial bodies circling around 1047 00:45:13,630 --> 00:45:11,180 each other and like perfect we don't we 1048 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:13,640 don't make a projection until a story 1049 00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:16,930 about how gravity works way out there so 1050 00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:19,520 what is simpler you know if it's your 1051 00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:22,730 job to to basically illustrate what 1052 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:25,310 you're seeing and you use you and Susie 1053 00:45:29,410 --> 00:45:26,570 use a certain method which is the 1054 00:45:30,940 --> 00:45:29,420 projection it sounds simpler but it's 1055 00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:30,950 really not actually simpler because you 1056 00:45:35,260 --> 00:45:32,630 then you have to explain how the 1057 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:35,270 protection is working and this is 1058 00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:37,450 something that you couldn't really 1059 00:45:41,950 --> 00:45:40,040 couldn't really work with our unknown 1060 00:45:44,050 --> 00:45:41,960 laws of physics and optics and 1061 00:45:46,750 --> 00:45:44,060 everything like that you have to invent 1062 00:45:48,850 --> 00:45:46,760 an entire new reality to explain it we 1063 00:45:51,310 --> 00:45:48,860 already have a working model of the 1064 00:45:53,530 --> 00:45:51,320 solar system and the aether the nearby 1065 00:45:55,380 --> 00:45:53,540 universe which works just fine all the 1066 00:45:57,730 --> 00:45:55,390 math works out like stellarium 1067 00:46:00,070 --> 00:45:57,740 stellarium is a software program it's 1068 00:46:02,740 --> 00:46:00,080 just a thing you've around your computer 1069 00:46:05,230 --> 00:46:02,750 and you can make it look up in the sky 1070 00:46:08,020 --> 00:46:05,240 and it'll show you what it looks like so 1071 00:46:09,340 --> 00:46:08,030 this is just using the standard model to 1072 00:46:11,530 --> 00:46:09,350 show you what the standard model looks 1073 00:46:13,630 --> 00:46:11,540 like so now you're taking that and 1074 00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:13,640 you're adding up on a whole extra layer 1075 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:15,680 on top of that you're saying here we 1076 00:46:21,820 --> 00:46:19,370 have a standard model but it's actually 1077 00:46:24,070 --> 00:46:21,830 all being simulated and it's created 1078 00:46:26,530 --> 00:46:24,080 using this projection system which 1079 00:46:29,170 --> 00:46:26,540 changes based on where you are and yet 1080 00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:29,180 is incredibly incredibly detailed so you 1081 00:46:32,290 --> 00:46:30,740 can zoom in on the moon and you can see 1082 00:46:35,890 --> 00:46:32,300 the craters of the moon you can zoom in 1083 00:46:37,990 --> 00:46:35,900 on galaxies you can see the the phases 1084 00:46:41,590 --> 00:46:38,000 of Venus you can see like the moons of 1085 00:46:43,300 --> 00:46:41,600 Jupiter just an attack I do think it's 1086 00:46:44,249 --> 00:46:43,310 very interesting that we can zoom in on 1087 00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:44,259 the moon 1088 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:48,079 because why a camera has a focal range 1089 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:50,210 that should not give us the distance the 1090 00:46:58,269 --> 00:46:53,450 moon is suppose that's not correct the 1091 00:47:00,009 --> 00:46:58,279 focal range isn't a limiting factor the 1092 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:00,019 limits come from the size of an object 1093 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:02,450 and how how much light is coming from it 1094 00:47:07,930 --> 00:47:05,930 the moon is very very big and it is 1095 00:47:10,450 --> 00:47:07,940 quite bright because it's illuminated by 1096 00:47:11,799 --> 00:47:10,460 the Sun when you can see it and so 1097 00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:11,809 there's no reason for you to not be able 1098 00:47:16,450 --> 00:47:14,089 to see there no reason for you for the 1099 00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:16,460 moon to be beyond any kind of focal 1100 00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:20,240 range well I'm I'm very very happy to 1101 00:47:27,249 --> 00:47:25,720 it kind of frustrates the episode myth 1102 00:47:32,620 --> 00:47:27,259 like when you say things like that the 1103 00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:32,630 focal range is yeah I do I don't mean 1104 00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:34,910 I'm like angry at you but it's a it's 1105 00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:37,460 just it makes me oh why can't I explain 1106 00:47:44,589 --> 00:47:40,609 this can I tell you some frustrations 1107 00:47:48,490 --> 00:47:44,599 that I have a kind way so I read your 1108 00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:48,500 book okay and I skip the chemtrail 1109 00:47:53,589 --> 00:47:51,470 portion but in the false flag portion 1110 00:47:56,380 --> 00:47:53,599 just for time because a lesser priority 1111 00:47:59,259 --> 00:47:56,390 but I read the first half and then I 1112 00:48:01,599 --> 00:47:59,269 read the latter half and I've been like 1113 00:48:06,279 --> 00:48:01,609 underlining passages and photographing 1114 00:48:08,140 --> 00:48:06,289 them and posting them in flat it's it's 1115 00:48:10,299 --> 00:48:08,150 been kind of a party for me just for a 1116 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:10,309 couple days because some of these lines 1117 00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:14,210 are just gosh it's like so I had like a 1118 00:48:25,509 --> 00:48:22,160 range of reaction to it and I I do see 1119 00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:25,519 you're like your good intentions and 1120 00:48:31,569 --> 00:48:29,119 your heart comes across especially in 1121 00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:31,579 like the autobiographical section and 1122 00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,609 where you talk about but we even 1123 00:48:38,049 --> 00:48:36,319 remember I asked you said yeah that 1124 00:48:41,140 --> 00:48:38,059 part's in the book we talked about being 1125 00:48:43,779 --> 00:48:41,150 a child and having having these stories 1126 00:48:45,940 --> 00:48:43,789 that they're really scared you and then 1127 00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:45,950 realizing that the stories are fake and 1128 00:48:53,650 --> 00:48:50,240 and having this sort of desire to save 1129 00:48:56,740 --> 00:48:53,660 people from the fear that wrong stories 1130 00:48:57,530 --> 00:48:56,750 can give them you know I really relate 1131 00:48:59,300 --> 00:48:57,540 to that and I was 1132 00:49:00,980 --> 00:48:59,310 talking to other some other 1133 00:49:02,780 --> 00:49:00,990 flat-earthers before I got on the phone 1134 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:02,790 with you and I was like it's pretty 1135 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:04,890 amazing we actually have the same goal 1136 00:49:12,140 --> 00:49:08,850 like we actually all want the same thing 1137 00:49:15,380 --> 00:49:12,150 we want to free each other of the fear 1138 00:49:17,210 --> 00:49:15,390 that misinformation you know above that 1139 00:49:18,830 --> 00:49:17,220 bad crippling fear that misinformation 1140 00:49:21,350 --> 00:49:18,840 gives us we want to free each other that 1141 00:49:24,620 --> 00:49:21,360 we just have very different philosophies 1142 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:24,630 of how to go about doing that and I was 1143 00:49:33,620 --> 00:49:28,010 thinking it's kind of like you to me I 1144 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:33,630 hope this isn't offensive I really so in 1145 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:35,610 the beginning you talked about using the 1146 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:39,330 term conspiracy theory and you like went 1147 00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:40,530 over it for a while like I know some 1148 00:49:43,250 --> 00:49:41,940 people don't like it but it's the best 1149 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:43,260 we got and it's not really that 1150 00:49:47,090 --> 00:49:45,450 offensive and sounds like okay fine you 1151 00:49:49,340 --> 00:49:47,100 I don't know if I would ever call myself 1152 00:49:50,750 --> 00:49:49,350 that but I'm not gonna be offended but I 1153 00:49:54,980 --> 00:49:50,760 was like well mate can I think of a term 1154 00:49:58,220 --> 00:49:54,990 to call him and um I thought of a few I 1155 00:50:01,460 --> 00:49:58,230 thought of mainstream fundamentalist I 1156 00:50:04,850 --> 00:50:01,470 know how that resonates with you or CNN 1157 00:50:06,050 --> 00:50:04,860 literalist because you know I know maybe 1158 00:50:10,460 --> 00:50:06,060 you wouldn't identify but it is a 1159 00:50:13,820 --> 00:50:10,470 descriptive term of what I see what I 1160 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:13,830 see you doing and that is to confirm the 1161 00:50:19,310 --> 00:50:17,370 mainstream story or you know you told me 1162 00:50:22,250 --> 00:50:19,320 that for example when you saw a passport 1163 00:50:26,510 --> 00:50:22,260 um the story of a passport falling from 1164 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:26,520 the crash that you were like and I was 1165 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:27,810 like do you really believe that cuz that 1166 00:50:33,410 --> 00:50:29,730 to me is like kind of like the epitome 1167 00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:33,420 of let's question something we should 1168 00:50:37,550 --> 00:50:36,000 question that and and you you responded 1169 00:50:39,170 --> 00:50:37,560 to me with you know in the range of 1170 00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:39,180 possibility there is a possibility that 1171 00:50:44,690 --> 00:50:41,730 could happen and so yes you think it's 1172 00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:44,700 true and to me I was like well how do I 1173 00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:47,280 talk about like what is what is that and 1174 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:50,310 and so I came up with CNN literal as to 1175 00:50:55,970 --> 00:50:53,010 the idea of like taking taking them at 1176 00:50:58,330 --> 00:50:55,980 their word I kind of if they say it it 1177 00:51:01,940 --> 00:50:58,340 must be true it's not a cheat it's not a 1178 00:51:02,930 --> 00:51:01,950 summary it's not just a lie or an 1179 00:51:05,180 --> 00:51:02,940 embellishment 1180 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:05,190 they said it so it's true I would I 1181 00:51:10,010 --> 00:51:07,050 would disagree with with that because 1182 00:51:10,789 --> 00:51:10,020 you know I I'm not setting out to prove 1183 00:51:13,279 --> 00:51:10,799 a particular 1184 00:51:16,009 --> 00:51:13,289 thing is true I'm saying I'm setting out 1185 00:51:18,650 --> 00:51:16,019 to see if if anything is true to see 1186 00:51:20,689 --> 00:51:18,660 that's what I do is test claims I'm not 1187 00:51:21,919 --> 00:51:20,699 trying to prove the opposite I'm trying 1188 00:51:26,029 --> 00:51:21,929 to see if you know what somebody is 1189 00:51:28,279 --> 00:51:26,039 claiming is true or not some people are 1190 00:51:30,319 --> 00:51:28,289 saying like you know there with the 1191 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:30,329 passport thing I've actually tried to do 1192 00:51:34,759 --> 00:51:32,729 experiments with with passports like I 1193 00:51:36,679 --> 00:51:34,769 got an old passport of mine and I did 1194 00:51:39,169 --> 00:51:36,689 things like soaking it in kerosene to 1195 00:51:40,699 --> 00:51:39,179 see what effect it would have yeah 1196 00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:40,709 because they said it smelled of kerosene 1197 00:51:46,459 --> 00:51:44,910 but it looked fine and if I yeah if I 1198 00:51:48,890 --> 00:51:46,469 had a bit more space here I would be 1199 00:51:50,509 --> 00:51:48,900 blowing up a passport I assisted 1200 00:51:54,709 --> 00:51:50,519 suggested this to a guy on the podcast 1201 00:51:56,959 --> 00:51:54,719 like a couple of weeks ago that you if 1202 00:51:59,599 --> 00:51:56,969 people think that a passport can't 1203 00:52:00,140 --> 00:51:59,609 survive an explosion then why didn't you 1204 00:52:02,089 --> 00:52:00,150 test that 1205 00:52:03,620 --> 00:52:02,099 why didn't you demonstrate it if it's 1206 00:52:06,799 --> 00:52:03,630 actually it's something that seems 1207 00:52:08,449 --> 00:52:06,809 implausible that a passport couldn't 1208 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:08,459 survive you're running into a building 1209 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:10,410 and a giant fireball and then flying out 1210 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:13,650 the other side but we also see bits of 1211 00:52:19,609 --> 00:52:16,890 paper surviving all kinds of air crashes 1212 00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:19,619 I mean I don't know if you end up being 1213 00:52:25,939 --> 00:52:22,880 ready but that I will like like 1214 00:52:27,169 --> 00:52:25,949 alternately I don't know but I think we 1215 00:52:28,729 --> 00:52:27,179 need to go beyond just personal 1216 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:28,739 incredulity though you need to actually 1217 00:52:34,459 --> 00:52:31,410 try to not just say oh it sounds amazing 1218 00:52:36,259 --> 00:52:34,469 so it must be false you've got to think 1219 00:52:39,319 --> 00:52:36,269 about the actual physics involved and 1220 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:39,329 even do some experiments has anybody 1221 00:52:43,189 --> 00:52:41,130 ever done an experiment blowing up a 1222 00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:43,199 passport to see what effect it would 1223 00:52:48,259 --> 00:52:46,559 have yeah that the explosion was like 40 1224 00:52:49,969 --> 00:52:48,269 feet behind them in the fuel tanks and 1225 00:52:53,359 --> 00:52:49,979 they were in the nose and they were they 1226 00:52:56,529 --> 00:52:53,369 had some forward velocity well I just I 1227 00:52:59,089 --> 00:52:56,539 don't think it's crazy to question it I 1228 00:53:00,829 --> 00:52:59,099 think because it seems ridiculous and 1229 00:53:03,890 --> 00:53:00,839 you know there was a there was a bandana 1230 00:53:05,779 --> 00:53:03,900 found at the flight 93 that looks like 1231 00:53:08,089 --> 00:53:05,789 pristine when you look at it in the 1232 00:53:11,449 --> 00:53:08,099 evidence photos so these things that 1233 00:53:13,849 --> 00:53:11,459 kind of stand out and you see yeah 1234 00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:13,859 there's lots of bits of evidence that 1235 00:53:17,929 --> 00:53:15,209 people point to because you're always 1236 00:53:21,140 --> 00:53:17,939 going to find something that is a bit 1237 00:53:23,179 --> 00:53:21,150 odd but you know I do think it's okay I 1238 00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,189 think it's okay to agree I think it's 1239 00:53:26,660 --> 00:53:24,720 okay to just agree ID 1240 00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:26,670 you know I'm I was from the beginning I 1241 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:28,110 was prepared to retract I thought you 1242 00:53:31,580 --> 00:53:29,490 were gonna like kind of maybe object to 1243 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:31,590 my labels that I got for you but then I 1244 00:53:36,530 --> 00:53:33,930 was gonna like okay we all take him back 1245 00:53:39,590 --> 00:53:36,540 but then I'd like to talk about the 1246 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:39,600 conspiracy theory label okay 1247 00:53:46,850 --> 00:53:43,650 so I see you know I saw a lot in your 1248 00:53:50,270 --> 00:53:46,860 book of like sort of stories of hearing 1249 00:53:52,910 --> 00:53:50,280 how people that's you call it falling 1250 00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:52,920 into a rabbit hole yeah and being sort 1251 00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,730 of Lord and doof and confused and and 1252 00:54:01,010 --> 00:53:58,800 all this kind of stuff I gotta tell you 1253 00:54:03,890 --> 00:54:01,020 I think that stuff really happens I 1254 00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:03,900 don't disagree with you I think you are 1255 00:54:10,250 --> 00:54:08,250 observing a real phenomenon I think that 1256 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:10,260 the sort of what you might call it 1257 00:54:16,430 --> 00:54:13,770 conspiracy theory world out there on 1258 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:16,440 YouTube especially for the past few 1259 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:20,130 years whatever is just laden with 1260 00:54:28,370 --> 00:54:23,490 deliberate misinformation and crafted 1261 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:28,380 narratives to lore I think that you were 1262 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:29,090 right 1263 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:32,370 however I don't think that's the whole 1264 00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:35,370 story I think that those are there as 1265 00:54:45,910 --> 00:54:39,920 kind of a a barrier like a like a 1266 00:54:50,620 --> 00:54:45,920 bramble bush wall to prevent people from 1267 00:54:53,030 --> 00:54:50,630 finding comfort and clarity in asking 1268 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:53,040 legitimate questions and going on a 1269 00:54:59,900 --> 00:54:56,610 pursuit of continuing to pursue those 1270 00:55:01,700 --> 00:54:59,910 questions so I kind of see what you're 1271 00:55:04,790 --> 00:55:01,710 saying in this book in terms of like 1272 00:55:07,610 --> 00:55:04,800 help ways to help your friend out of 1273 00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:07,620 believing in conspiracy theory I think 1274 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:09,270 you're right and I think you're wrong I 1275 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:12,570 think that they're like yes like if 1276 00:55:18,850 --> 00:55:15,570 there are gonna be people who just get 1277 00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:18,860 confused and incredibly stressed out and 1278 00:55:24,740 --> 00:55:22,770 thinking that like Alex Jones is right 1279 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:24,750 and that there's gonna be like Jade helm 1280 00:55:33,410 --> 00:55:29,330 and whatever and like just fear fear is 1281 00:55:34,970 --> 00:55:33,420 overwhelming and it is positive to be 1282 00:55:37,310 --> 00:55:34,980 supportive them and maybe give them a 1283 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:37,320 path out of that fear because there's 1284 00:55:40,570 --> 00:55:38,810 this guy called 1285 00:55:41,950 --> 00:55:40,580 quantum of conscience it's a channel 1286 00:55:43,660 --> 00:55:41,960 that I actually really like I don't 1287 00:55:46,030 --> 00:55:43,670 agree with everything he says but he's 1288 00:55:48,820 --> 00:55:46,040 almost like I'm a very other spectrum of 1289 00:55:50,650 --> 00:55:48,830 you well he also talks about like kind 1290 00:55:53,230 --> 00:55:50,660 of letting go of a lot of conspiracy 1291 00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:53,240 theory like recognizing that something 1292 00:55:58,840 --> 00:55:56,810 was weird is going on and journeying 1293 00:56:01,360 --> 00:55:58,850 through it if you want to but also 1294 00:56:02,770 --> 00:56:01,370 coming into a place where you you you 1295 00:56:04,990 --> 00:56:02,780 realize you can't quite figure it out 1296 00:56:07,570 --> 00:56:05,000 and it's okay to let go and not try to 1297 00:56:09,790 --> 00:56:07,580 figure it out but he also specifically 1298 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:09,800 talks about something called graduated 1299 00:56:15,430 --> 00:56:13,610 animal farms is a term he uses and what 1300 00:56:18,340 --> 00:56:15,440 he's talking about is somebody like Alex 1301 00:56:20,980 --> 00:56:18,350 Jones or you know a lot of a lot of 1302 00:56:23,830 --> 00:56:20,990 figures like that where like if you talk 1303 00:56:26,140 --> 00:56:23,840 to if you came on this podcast that's I 1304 00:56:27,370 --> 00:56:26,150 think eavesdropping on our color or if 1305 00:56:28,570 --> 00:56:27,380 you talk to you like a lot of flat 1306 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:28,580 earthers you're kind of like what you 1307 00:56:33,490 --> 00:56:30,650 might call like deep in it they wouldn't 1308 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:33,500 listen to Alex Jones for a second they 1309 00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:37,010 know it's been manipulative hogwash they 1310 00:56:44,830 --> 00:56:40,510 know it's like a trap a mind chap and 1311 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:44,840 it's I don't know what it's really there 1312 00:56:49,810 --> 00:56:48,050 for it you know it's it's there too I do 1313 00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:49,820 think they tell you some legitimate 1314 00:56:54,730 --> 00:56:51,710 questions to be asking about the news 1315 00:56:57,220 --> 00:56:54,740 and they point out legitimate issues 1316 00:57:01,180 --> 00:56:57,230 with official stories and then they take 1317 00:57:05,020 --> 00:57:01,190 you on this wild ride of just bad energy 1318 00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:05,030 bad you know they they hijack you into 1319 00:57:11,500 --> 00:57:07,250 this sort of incredibly offensive path 1320 00:57:14,230 --> 00:57:11,510 where there's no calm and and know sort 1321 00:57:17,230 --> 00:57:14,240 of like positive route out of it I'm 1322 00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:17,240 sure I'm sure it's it's just like this 1323 00:57:21,790 --> 00:57:19,250 middle area where they're giving you 1324 00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:21,800 some legitimate questions and a whole 1325 00:57:30,130 --> 00:57:26,960 bunch of narrative lies and that is that 1326 00:57:32,980 --> 00:57:30,140 is a real place that people can go to in 1327 00:57:34,180 --> 00:57:32,990 conspiracy theory but that is I think 1328 00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:34,190 what there's a difference there is that 1329 00:57:39,850 --> 00:57:37,280 it's conspiracy theory where people come 1330 00:57:42,310 --> 00:57:39,860 up with sort of a theory of what's going 1331 00:57:44,590 --> 00:57:42,320 on for example like this Jade helm sort 1332 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:44,600 of like dangerous situation but from the 1333 00:57:49,750 --> 00:57:47,450 government ever but it it's a story that 1334 00:57:52,390 --> 00:57:49,760 maybe you can debunk and that would be 1335 00:57:55,029 --> 00:57:52,400 great for a lot of people but 1336 00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:55,039 because you can debunk it and just 1337 00:58:00,240 --> 00:57:57,440 because it's a fabricated story meant to 1338 00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:00,250 lure and create paranoia and fear 1339 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:04,130 doesn't mean that the stories CNN is 1340 00:58:09,250 --> 00:58:07,130 telling us are true and so this is the 1341 00:58:11,410 --> 00:58:09,260 idea that graduate animal farm that you 1342 00:58:13,660 --> 00:58:11,420 you realize CNN isn't always telling the 1343 00:58:18,099 --> 00:58:13,670 truth and so you land in this other 1344 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:18,109 gated world like Alex Jones and you get 1345 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:20,210 you get exhilarated you're like oh my 1346 00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:21,890 god I'm breaking free from something and 1347 00:58:26,589 --> 00:58:24,319 I'm rolling off so that kind of weird 1348 00:58:29,710 --> 00:58:26,599 exhilaration you're right you're right 1349 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:29,720 there's a problem but I don't believe 1350 00:58:35,289 --> 00:58:32,450 the solution is to just go right back to 1351 00:58:36,700 --> 00:58:35,299 CNN and and forget about it and fall in 1352 00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:36,710 line and be safe again 1353 00:58:42,579 --> 00:58:39,710 I believe the solution is to diversify 1354 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:42,589 even more in the exploration and the 1355 00:58:46,809 --> 00:58:44,930 question if you choose it the solution 1356 00:58:48,430 --> 00:58:46,819 for some people not for everybody I 1357 00:58:50,740 --> 00:58:48,440 think it's totally fine if you want to 1358 00:58:53,740 --> 00:58:50,750 go back to CNN you do anything you want 1359 00:58:55,809 --> 00:58:53,750 but the solution for some people the 1360 00:58:59,319 --> 00:58:55,819 healthy solution for some people is to 1361 00:59:01,089 --> 00:58:59,329 keep going and to keep diversifying and 1362 00:59:02,799 --> 00:59:01,099 the ideas that they're exploring and the 1363 00:59:04,900 --> 00:59:02,809 people that are considering listening to 1364 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:04,910 and in speaking for themselves and 1365 00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:07,130 having dialogue with each other because 1366 00:59:13,359 --> 00:59:11,839 um there may be many wrong answers out 1367 00:59:15,069 --> 00:59:13,369 there but just because there are many 1368 00:59:18,579 --> 00:59:15,079 wrong answers doesn't mean we'd go back 1369 00:59:22,569 --> 00:59:18,589 to the first answer that's fascinating 1370 00:59:24,849 --> 00:59:22,579 perspective and you know I can see 1371 00:59:27,940 --> 00:59:24,859 there's this a large degree of truth in 1372 00:59:30,190 --> 00:59:27,950 what you're saying and yeah for me it's 1373 00:59:33,700 --> 00:59:30,200 it's kind of weird like hearing someone 1374 00:59:35,380 --> 00:59:33,710 who is a believer that the earth might 1375 00:59:37,779 --> 00:59:35,390 not be a globe and it might be it might 1376 00:59:40,299 --> 00:59:37,789 be flat and hearing you talk about yeah 1377 00:59:43,859 --> 00:59:40,309 yeah so it's actually so intelligently 1378 00:59:46,900 --> 00:59:43,869 about the state of public perception of 1379 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:46,910 government in the propaganda for want of 1380 00:59:52,839 --> 00:59:50,210 a better word and I think you know it's 1381 00:59:54,490 --> 00:59:52,849 really you know what you're saying has a 1382 00:59:56,049 --> 00:59:54,500 large degree of truth in it but from my 1383 00:59:58,329 --> 00:59:56,059 perspective again like I said earlier 1384 01:00:00,670 --> 00:59:58,339 it's it really grates with the fact that 1385 01:00:02,650 --> 01:00:00,680 you you have all these questions about 1386 01:00:04,630 --> 01:00:02,660 not quite not neither you have questions 1387 01:00:05,870 --> 01:00:04,640 we had these wrong beliefs from my 1388 01:00:07,490 --> 01:00:05,880 perspective 1389 01:00:09,110 --> 01:00:07,500 in the shape of the earth and the 1390 01:00:10,790 --> 01:00:09,120 physics and things like you know 1391 01:00:14,380 --> 01:00:10,800 acceleration and perspective and things 1392 01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:14,390 like that and you know I kind of wish 1393 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:17,010 yeah I don't want you to not question 1394 01:00:22,670 --> 01:00:19,770 things but I just wish there's a way 1395 01:00:25,700 --> 01:00:22,680 I've kind of you know getting past this 1396 01:00:27,110 --> 01:00:25,710 do you ever think that perhaps yeah well 1397 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:27,120 I don't want to make you think they're 1398 01:00:31,340 --> 01:00:28,650 making stuff up here but do you ever 1399 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:31,350 think that the Flat Earth movement might 1400 01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:35,250 be a part of something negative like 1401 01:00:39,710 --> 01:00:37,110 someone's actually promoting Flat Earth 1402 01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:39,720 for negative reasons I've thought it 1403 01:00:45,890 --> 01:00:41,940 many times I will think it again 1404 01:00:48,500 --> 01:00:45,900 tomorrow absolutely there is weird weird 1405 01:00:52,130 --> 01:00:48,510 stuff everywhere all the time it's like 1406 01:00:56,300 --> 01:00:52,140 the Dilbert roll out like why there does 1407 01:00:59,780 --> 01:00:56,310 seem to be some kind of infiltration and 1408 01:01:07,580 --> 01:00:59,790 like misinformation all over the place 1409 01:01:09,530 --> 01:01:07,590 and so yeah absolutely but I think it's 1410 01:01:12,050 --> 01:01:09,540 a mixed bag I think that there are 1411 01:01:14,990 --> 01:01:12,060 because I have taken so much time to 1412 01:01:17,930 --> 01:01:15,000 personally explore these questions so 1413 01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:17,940 there there are things like I've just 1414 01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:20,250 have like over the globe model but I 1415 01:01:23,750 --> 01:01:22,650 just don't know where we really are I 1416 01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:23,760 just don't know what we're really 1417 01:01:29,900 --> 01:01:25,890 dealing with you do some experiments 1418 01:01:32,060 --> 01:01:29,910 coming up we do yes any hot and crazy 1419 01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:32,070 but you are totally in right I would 1420 01:01:37,820 --> 01:01:34,910 come down this is Sultan see Assam see 1421 01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:37,830 on Sunday we're gonna be starting very 1422 01:01:42,260 --> 01:01:40,410 early Sunday I mean I'm like I see the 1423 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:42,270 whole conversation but like the 1424 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:43,770 experiment I just kind of sit back and 1425 01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:46,290 enjoy it but there are several others 1426 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:50,310 who are like deeply involved in you know 1427 01:01:53,660 --> 01:01:51,450 figuring out what the experiments are 1428 01:01:56,690 --> 01:01:53,670 going to be deciding siding with that 1429 01:01:58,880 --> 01:01:56,700 and using your math yeah I actually just 1430 01:02:00,620 --> 01:01:58,890 updated my curve calculator today 1431 01:02:03,170 --> 01:02:00,630 because I was I was watching a 1432 01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:03,180 screencast with jarran is my hangout 1433 01:02:11,090 --> 01:02:06,930 with Jerry anism yeah terrific guy yeah 1434 01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:11,100 yeah I know I know I would but he 1435 01:02:14,990 --> 01:02:12,510 actually lives near B maybe we could 1436 01:02:16,370 --> 01:02:15,000 carpool on the way down but I I really 1437 01:02:19,340 --> 01:02:16,380 really couldn't do it cuz I'm a little 1438 01:02:21,620 --> 01:02:19,350 bit too busy this weekend 1439 01:02:23,030 --> 01:02:21,630 I updated the curve calculator I have 1440 01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:23,040 this curve calculator on my website 1441 01:02:28,490 --> 01:02:25,770 which everybody uses to work out what 1442 01:02:31,460 --> 01:02:28,500 the globe say is should be and I've 1443 01:02:34,370 --> 01:02:31,470 added a note that says these refraction 1444 01:02:38,210 --> 01:02:34,380 results are not accurate for horizon 1445 01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:38,220 skimming observations over water because 1446 01:02:41,210 --> 01:02:39,330 people are always using the curve 1447 01:02:43,970 --> 01:02:41,220 calculator and they're doing these these 1448 01:02:46,700 --> 01:02:43,980 these calculations like over lakes which 1449 01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:46,710 it just doesn't work for so I've added I 1450 01:02:50,510 --> 01:02:48,480 did that I'm sure they'll notice that at 1451 01:02:52,310 --> 01:02:50,520 some point and we'll see what the 1452 01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:52,320 responses but I'm hoping it'll get them 1453 01:02:55,820 --> 01:02:54,450 to think about it you know wire why are 1454 01:02:58,550 --> 01:02:55,830 these observation is not valid over 1455 01:03:01,850 --> 01:02:58,560 water so that's gonna have a topic for 1456 01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:01,860 another day and well we've been going 1457 01:03:04,370 --> 01:03:02,730 for over an hour now 1458 01:03:09,140 --> 01:03:04,380 and I think you know I think that was a 1459 01:03:11,780 --> 01:03:09,150 very good very good series of points 1460 01:03:12,830 --> 01:03:11,790 that you just made there and yeah I 1461 01:03:15,590 --> 01:03:12,840 think it give people something to think 1462 01:03:17,300 --> 01:03:15,600 about and you know you don't want to get 1463 01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:17,310 into any big debunking or anything but 1464 01:03:22,460 --> 01:03:19,650 maybe some other time we could discuss 1465 01:03:24,500 --> 01:03:22,470 some of the physics and math type issues 1466 01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:24,510 that you raised like the acceleration 1467 01:03:29,780 --> 01:03:26,570 going to India and things like that so 1468 01:03:32,300 --> 01:03:29,790 let's get specific yeah that's one well 1469 01:03:33,650 --> 01:03:32,310 thank you very much thank you very much 1470 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:33,660 wait let me ask you have you had 1471 01:03:37,460 --> 01:03:35,370 conversations like this before with 1472 01:03:38,870 --> 01:03:37,470 flat-earthers this is new for you or 1473 01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:38,880 something you've done before this is 1474 01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:42,690 probably the most extensive general 1475 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:44,370 conversation I have I have talks to 1476 01:03:51,890 --> 01:03:48,810 people in a variety of hangouts but they 1477 01:03:54,050 --> 01:03:51,900 tended to be a bit more adversarial the 1478 01:03:57,830 --> 01:03:54,060 Nathan Oakley you might know him he's 1479 01:04:01,220 --> 01:03:57,840 very she's not charity type person okay 1480 01:04:03,410 --> 01:04:01,230 and Antony Riley in the UK I've talked 1481 01:04:05,090 --> 01:04:03,420 to him but yeah it's great very talking 1482 01:04:07,220 --> 01:04:05,100 to you and yeah the other people at the 1483 01:04:13,850 --> 01:04:07,230 conference like Nathan Gonzales very 1484 01:04:15,740 --> 01:04:13,860 nice guy yeah and just I think it's it's 1485 01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:15,750 good to have a productive dialogue 1486 01:04:21,740 --> 01:04:18,960 rather than a fighting adversarial 1487 01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:21,750 dialogue I feel so tear it's wonderful I 1488 01:04:25,970 --> 01:04:23,490 really appreciate invitation I 1489 01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:25,980 appreciate your whole way of talking to 1490 01:04:32,170 --> 01:04:27,770 me I think it's great I appreciate it 1491 01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:32,180 [Music] 1492 01:04:36,020 --> 01:04:34,530 you finished in two tales from the